Penn Badgley On Grief, Male Intimacy & His New Short Film

Fans of Netflix’s You are used to hearing Penn Badgley narrate serial killer Joe Goldberg’s inner thoughts. But on his Stitcher Studios podcast, Podcrushed, the 36-year-old actor uses his voice in a completely different way, breathing new life into listener-submitted stories about the funny and sometimes heartbreaking experiences of adolescence. And one submission from a young Turkish man named Emir Ali was so moving it prompted Badgley and his co-hosts Sophie Ansari and Nava Kavelin to go beyond the regular podcast treatment, enlisting Australia-based animator Oscar Gomez to turn the story into a short film.

In the Ebb & Flow, which is available to watch via Podcrushed’s YouTube channel, is an emotional exploration of the fear and depression Ali experienced in his adolescence as his mother battled and ultimately succumbed to a terminal illness. In addition to being a poignant study of the progressive stages of loss, it’s also a nuanced look at family dynamics, as Ali reflects on the anger over his mother’s death that he shares with his father. “It is, in some ways, the story of two men losing the most intimate relationship in their life,” Badgley says. “I think stories of male intimacy, of male love, are ones we need more of.”

The Gossip Girl alum says he was “spiritually motivated” and honored that Ali trusted him to give voice to his formative experience, so he took great care in getting it right. “It’s tricky when you’re doing something like this, when you’re bringing people’s stories to life, even just for a few minutes,” he adds. “To me, the top priority is being faithful to their voice and the spirit of why they want to share this story.”

Below, Badgley shares his own coming-of-age experience and how he’ll say goodbye to You after five seasons.

When that episode with Ali’s story dropped, you, Nava, and Sophie had already commissioned the short. What made this story the one you wanted to give an animated visual?

There’s something about the way that Emir told this story that was really, I’m going to say shocking, but it was just moving. I think on all fronts, it just really clicked for us. At that point, we had been toying with the idea of animation with a number of stories and a number of different animators. And I really think the way that Oscar Gomez, our animator, captured Emir’s voice immediately proved to be a very special and poignant thing.

What is it about focusing on these formative, coming-of-age years that you thought would be so ripe for storytelling on Podcrushed?

Once you’re about 12, suddenly you can experience things like never before, and sadness is one of them. If the spectrum is increased suddenly, you can go to higher heights, and you can go to lower depths. Even when the stories are quite light, it’s pretty clear that the shame that one can experience is not light, really. It stays with you. Our aim is to uplift; we want people to feel seen and heard. Or to be seen and heard in a way that you did not anticipate and really wish was not happening: the embarrassment, the awkwardness, the cringe, all that.

You moved to Los Angeles and began acting when you were young. What pivotal events from that coming-of-age period shaped who you are today?

One of the hallmarks of my middle school experience is that I didn’t really go to middle school. I was already a professional and coming into an industry where, for a number of reasons, the experience of children and young people often can be traumatic. You’re operating in an industry that really demands maturity because of the levels of rejection that you face, based on simply your body alone, just the way you look and then the way you act — things that are very hard to change about yourself, if at all. So something that marked my middle school years was a really deep sadness coming from a number of places. The profundity of this period of life is that you’re finally exposed to the full range of human emotion, and that’s kind of alarming.

Saying goodbye to You after Season 5 is obviously a very different type of loss, but how will you grieve the end of your run as Joe and the series as a whole?

You never know until you’re there. There will be a loss. I will have lost Joe. It will have its wistful, nostalgic, and sort of bittersweet, poignant aspects to it, but I don’t think it will be sad. I think I will be happy to let him go. It’s the experience, you know? My relationship with the creators of the show, and then somehow my relationship with Joe, will be changed and gone. The weird irony is that he’ll stay with me more than [he will with] anybody else, other than maybe like [series co-creator] Sera Gamble and Caroline Kepnes, who wrote the book series. So I don’t even know that I’ll have to or be able to let him go. People will still call me Joe.

What has playing Joe taught you about yourself, and where would you like to see his story end?

I’ve learned a lot, honestly. To help elevate the conversation around the themes of the show, as I’ve done since its beginning, I’ve learned a lot. I really had to meditate on all he represents more than I ever had. In that way, I’m indebted to him and grateful to him, as much as I can be grateful to an imaginary character who’s ultimately a terrible person. Being in touch with his heart, weirdly, is all that I have left to do. So the fifth season will be interesting because he, as a character, is probably less in touch with his heart than ever, which means that I, portraying him, have to be more in touch with his heart than ever. Hopefully, what we’re gonna do is something you haven’t seen yet. Hopefully, what we’re gonna do is bring a very, very satisfying end to it all. But I don’t know what that means yet. I don’t know what it’s gonna look like.

This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.