Khloé Kardashian Sets Herself Free

Being stopped in public is par for the course when you’re a Kardashian — but not always for the reasons you might expect. “I was playing at the park and a doctor was there with his kids,” Khloé Kardashian tells me, her voice a little scratchy. “And he was like, ‘Not to overstep, but your cough, it sounds like you might have pneumonia.’ And so we called the doctor, and lo and behold, I do.”

Kardashian is calling from Palm Springs, the in-person hangout we’d painstakingly planned now derailed, where she’s got a breathing machine on standby as she prepares to celebrate Thanksgiving with her family. “With the holidays, you would think maybe you have more time to rest, but I feel like it’s so much busier because the kids are out and they just want to play,” she says of her children, True, 6, and Tatum, 2, whom she shares with former partner Tristan Thompson. “But just a little food and I’ll be thrilled.”

Holidays and pneumonia notwithstanding, it’s a busy time for the mom of two. She turned 40 in June, and with a new decade has come a new sense of intention around her work. “When I first started in this industry, people would be like, ‘Here’s X amount of money if you wear this sweater,’” she recalls. “And I was like, ‘You get paid to wear a sweater?!’ It was such a foreign concept to me and I was so excited. But I don’t just want to promote something that I really don’t stand behind. I could be doing cash grabs all day long if I didn’t have a conscience. I could be on OnlyFans, I could be doing crazy things — but that’s not my thing.”

So what is Khloé’s thing? Well, there’s a podcast launching in early 2025, in which she will invite guests to go deep on subjects she’s fascinated by. But first there’s the launch of her signature fragrance, XO Khloé. “It was something that I’ve always wanted to do on my own,” she says of the scent, a genuinely lovely and light floral concoction packaged in a weighty geometric bottle. (I’ve worn it every day since getting a sample.) “I’ve done collaborations with my sisters or my ex-husband [Lamar Odom], but I was very nervous to do it on my own. It’s very vulnerable. It’s a lot of pressure, but I wanted to push my boundaries.”

That might sound extreme, even silly to those standing outside the Kardashian Kosmos — vulnerability in putting one’s name on a fragrance?! — but after nearly two decades of relentless public scrutiny, with every success, failure, and evolution in her waistline examined in minute detail, Kardashian’s caution is understandable. But, as she goes on to explain, having shed the baggage of her 30s with the support of her family, she’s finally ready to quiet her inner critic and reclaim what’s been hers all along.

My friends in their 40s talk about it as this decade where everything falls into place and you let go of the stuff that once made you unhappy. What has your experience been?

My sisters Kourtney and Kim both said [that too]. When you’re young, you think 40 is so old, and now I’m like, “Wait — I feel so good!” I am in the best shape of my life. I’m doing new career stuff. I’ve only been 40 for about six months, but it’s the absolute best. You don’t give a sh*t about some of the stuff you once did. Intentionally, at 39, I tried to close a lot of chapters. I called it shedding — shedding this decade of my 30s and this energy I wanted to leave behind. There are so many new things that I’m doing in my first year of 40 that I know for a fact my 40s and on are going to be f*cking incredible.

What kinds of things were you shedding?

The pandemic really made me a recluse. It made me super socially anxious once we got back to the real world. And for some reason I got really insecure about doing anything on my own. What if this failed? There were so many negative thoughts in my head. I’ve always been such a confident person, and then I went through some personal things with my relationships and a lot of them took a hit at my self-esteem. I don’t think I really put all of it together, that it was just this perfect negative storm that festered. Because of the pandemic, you’re sitting in these negative thoughts more than you would if you could have dinners or go dancing with your girlfriends or have that team around you.

I started being so mean to myself and I don’t know where it came from. I mean, I could speculate a few areas why, but it made me sad, the person that I allowed my inner voice to be — because that’s never been me.

Did anyone in your life help you get out of that mindset?

All my siblings. It takes a village to raise a family — it takes a village just to live in this world, especially nowadays. It’s so dark and so heavy. But I will say my sister Kim has really held my hand through so many dark phases for me. And my mom. But Kim has really been this crusader for me. I feel like she has always been holding that light at the end of the tunnel, drawing me closer to the light. I’m just really grateful for that relationship. When people see things in you that you can’t see in yourself and they keep reminding you — it’s such a special quality. We all need those champions.

“When I was bigger, I thought I was the hottest thing in the world. I had so much more confidence. And then when I lost weight, people were like, How dare you!”

When I’m really stressed, I often get breakfast with my best friend before work instead of getting cocktails. It’s so valuable to just sit there calmly and chat.

That is so Sex and the City. I love that.

I mean, it’s normally just moaning in Balthazar, but I guess maybe that is what we need.

We need that tribe. I have so many group chats, and we just do morale checks sometimes, like, “Hey, how’s everyone doing?” Sometimes you just need the reminder: No matter what, I have my people.

Speaking of family, when I told people I was interviewing you, several said, “I love her relationship with Rob so much.” Why do you think people are so into that?

Oh my gosh, I have the biggest smile on my face. That makes me so happy to hear. That’s just my baby. I love all my siblings, but I think with Rob, I identify with him so much. I feel so deeply what he feels — the struggles that he has, or just wanting to be out of the public eye, or just feeling like he doesn’t fit in or is being judged about his appearance. I feel like we were raised in pairs: It was Kourtney and Kim, and then it was me and Rob, and then Kendall and Kylie. And I just feel like we are both each other’s protectors. I love him so much. It’s just innate.

I have two sisters, and they’re the people you just know will always be there in a different way to anyone else.

It’s the best ever. It’s why I wanted True to have a sibling so badly. Not to be morbid, but when my dad passed away, my mom — regardless of how incredible and amazing she is — she couldn’t understand the pain that we felt. And so for True, I was like, “I need her to have someone.” It’s just inevitable that both of her parents at some point will go. And I just need her to have that support system.

Your new fragrance, XO Khloé, is your first big launch of this era. Tell me about the 18-month process of creating it.

Well, there are different stages. The name — I could barely name my kids, it’s so hard. Working with a fragrance house, a perfumer, you’re trying to reiterate the things that you want to smell and hoping that you’re describing it the right way and that they’re understanding you. We did switch fragrance houses a couple times, and we finally got it down. It’s absolutely perfect. I wanted it to be confident and sexy, but still light and understated.

“Where do I go to date you? I’m not going to a restaurant where there’s paparazzi. I’m not going to your home because what if you kill me? You’re not coming to my home — I have kids!”

Earlier this year you said the fragrance was “taking time because I’m a perfectionist.” Being a perfectionist can be tough — how do you make sure it’s a helpful force, not a destructive one?

I had that challenge a lot more before I had kids. It was really hard for me to see it as clearly as I do now. I notice sometimes my kids will want to line their toys up a certain way, and then I feel bad because I’m like, “Oh gosh, they’re mirroring what I’m doing.” I know these are silly examples, but I’ve learned it’s OK for me to show a messy room because I don’t want them to feel like everything has to be perfect.

I’m so much kinder to other people than I am to myself. With my kids, I had to learn, well, why do I give so much grace and empathy and understanding to everybody else? It’s OK for me to give myself that same patience and grace.

When it comes to fragrance, I did have some deadlines that I didn’t make because the scent wasn’t right, but I needed the perfectionism there because it had to be something that I wanted to drench my body in and wear every day and stand behind it. I don’t want to be selling a fragrance, and then someone asks me what I am wearing and it’s not mine.

I listened to an interview you did on Jay Shetty’s podcast and I was really interested in the importance you put on kindness. I do value kindness, though I’ve definitely had to unpack how “be kind” can sometimes, especially for women, be a bit of a prison. We’re so focused on being kind, we often don’t call out bad behavior when we see it. What do you think about that balance?

I agree with you so much, I do. But I love the motto “You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.” I believe how you treat others is a reflection of you, but I get what you’re saying — the good still gets you walked on all over. So there is a boundary, but you can be kind and stern. It’s not what you say, it’s how you say it. These are the golden rules. It’s something that I don’t just tell my children about, but I show my children by how I treat others and by how I treat them.

Tell me more about your own podcast. What is it going to be about?

The podcast is about my curiosities — all the things I wonder about — but overall I want people to get a positive message. It’s not going to be salacious. I am not going to be gossiping about other people. It’s more the things that I’m into. I love talking about religion or grief or the afterlife or healing and trauma, dating, relationships. It’s all over the place. I’ve recorded two episodes so far — one with Jay Shetty, so it’s so funny you said that — and I recorded one with Scott Disick, my brother-in-law.

I don’t want to sound ungrateful at all — I love every single thing that I do, and it makes me so fulfilled — but there are times I’m like, “I wish I could give more to people, something that has some heart or depth or some takeaway.” And so that’s really the point of my podcast. You listen and you’re like, “Oh, wow, OK, it was good for my soul.”

“I do go to therapy now. It’s actually Kim’s therapist. Kim was really adamant. I was like, ‘I’ll do this for you.’ And the therapist was like, ‘I think you should come three days a week.’”

During the election cycle, there was a lot of talk about how the candidates were more interested in going on podcasts than doing traditional media. What do you find so attractive about the format?

Yeah, it’s crazy how podcasts are turning into the new talk show. On a talk show, you have about five to seven minutes tops, if you’re the top guest, to get out what you need to get out. If you’re fighting to run a country, you can really get your message out there [on a podcast] and it’s not so contrived. I think you get way more heart in it. For me, I sit on a couch and it’s more casual. More of a loose conversation. It’s not that talk shows are fake or phony — I’m not saying that — but it’s limiting: You’re wearing your best dress and you’re putting your best foot forward and you’re always selling something. You’re there because you’re promoting a book or whatever. A podcast, you’re just there because you want to chitchat.

Speaking of books, I know you’ve talked about loving writing and that you write a lot. Would you ever write a memoir?

I don’t know. I’ve learned to never say never. It’s definitely not something I plan to do. I love to write, but just for myself. It’s so therapeutic. I love to get my thoughts out there. Sometimes I just will put pen to paper and don’t even know what I’m going to say and things just start coming out. I like old-school writing, taking a pen and paper.

I sometimes look back at my journal entries when I was in a tough moment. It’ll be unhinged, but I realize I was actually fine that day because I wrote it out.

That’s so true. That’s how I feel about the gym, too. If you’re having a bad day, you get that anger out. You should always, even if you’re having a hard day, write it down and crumple it up and get it out of here. If you write nice things, it’s so weird — you start to have a different feeling take over your body. You’re lighter.

“Sometimes my kids will want to line their toys up a certain way, and then I feel bad because I’m like, ‘Oh gosh, they’re mirroring what I’m doing.’”

It’s funny you say that about the gym. I’ve gone through a pretty big body transformation in my 30s, losing a large amount of weight with the help of medication. I felt such shame about the weight when I had it, because I was trying so hard to lose it and feel like myself and nothing was happening, for a mixture of reasons. But I’ve had such interesting reactions — some people think you are abandoning your “real” self for a fake self, which has driven me mad. I know that you’ve spoken about your own body and how that’s evolved, and I wonder if you’ve had similar experiences.

Well, first of all, congratulations.

Thank you.

It is a journey and it is a constant struggle, at least for me. I was the same. Also, looking back, when I was bigger, I thought I was the hottest thing in the world. I had so much more confidence the bigger I was, which is what’s crazy. And then the more in shape I am, the more insecure I can get because I’m so hard on myself. It’s a vicious cycle that you don’t get out of. But when I started losing weight, I got the same thing. I was fat-shamed every day when I was bigger, and then when I lost weight, people were like, How dare you, you are so insecure, you’re following society. And I’m like, “OK, you guys are so confusing!” I realized you’ll never make everyone happy. I have to do what’s best for me.

My weight loss journey started because I was getting a divorce. I remember I was going to therapy and the next thing I knew, something private I told my therapist was on a tabloid. And I knew that my therapist disclosed this information to a tabloid because there’s no way this could have gotten out there. So I stopped going to therapy and started going to the gym. I needed a release, but I did not trust anybody else anymore. And the place that I felt the safest was the gym.

As a byproduct, my body started changing. I loved the way I felt. I loved testing myself and challenging myself. And I’ve been doing it for 10-plus years now, and I love it. Over the past three years, people are like, “You must have gotten surgery because you just lost weight.” I’m like, “It’s been a 10-year journey! What are you talking about?” But even if people get surgery or [get on] the Ozempic craze, I’m like, “Who cares!” As long as people feel good about themselves, who am I to judge? I think it’s ridiculous, the judgment on that. I’m just mad [Ozempic] wasn’t around 10 years ago.

I agree. I’m so sorry about that experience with therapy. That sounds awful.

Yes, it was very jarring and sort of unbelievable, but there’s not a chance in the world that it came from anywhere else.

“I love doing the show for so many reasons. I love documenting memories. It’s almost like I have really expensive home videos. Maybe the kids will take over.”

Earlier this year on The Kardashians, Kim and your best friend Malika Haqq were trying to get you back into therapy, and you said, “I’m not sure it’s for me.” Do you see yourself ever going back?

I do go to therapy now. I started when I was 39.

Oh, good for you.

Yes. She’s really lovely and I really like her. It’s actually Kim’s therapist. Kim was really adamant. I was like, “I’ll do this for you.” I dragged my feet, and then I was like, “Wow, OK, this is good. I needed this.” And my therapist was like, “I think you should come three days a week.” [Laughs.] She was like, “You really need to be here.” It all worked out.

It’s amazing when you find the right person. I love mine. I have a slightly tough one from Brooklyn. She sort of teases me in a way that makes me feel able to open up. Maybe it’s a British thing, but I love it.

I love when someone’s sort of mean to me. I’m a British type of girl. I should have been British. I love British humor. I want you to have a go at me — I need that.

You mentioned earlier that you might touch on dating in your podcast. I’m single at 36 and feel very content after having had a tough time in my 20s, which makes me nervous about upsetting the apple cart. Do you ever feel that way? It seems like you’re in such a great place, which is obviously a great time to meet someone, but it can feel scary to be vulnerable.

You and I are very similar. Dating has not been a focus for me, and I’ve been single for about three years and love it. I really, really do. But I’m not single and dating. I’m just single. I have such power and strength in that. I’m not lonely. There would be a difference if I was single and lonely: “I really need my partner.” I am single and thriving. I feel like I’m working on myself so much and am getting to such a good place that I just don’t want something to disrupt it. Also, I don’t know if it’s just me, but dating today is very scary. I’m not going to meet someone on social media. I’m not checking my DMs. I’m not! And when you go on someone’s Instagram, if it’s a guy, anyone’s corny unless you like them.

Yeah, totally.

You’re like, God, you took a selfie? But I take 7,000 selfies! I just feel like we’re too judgy. I need to meet your personality. And then I’m like, “OK, you’re cute.” And then, your selfies? I adore.

I feel the same. It’s so hard online and even out and about in New York. I’m like, “Oh my God, these people are awful.”

It’s awful anywhere. I just can’t imagine I would bring a man that I’m dating around my kids. So then where do I go to date you? I’m not going to a restaurant where there’s paparazzi and everyone’s going to say we’re getting married next week. I’m not going to your home because what if you kill me? You’re not coming to my home — I have kids! And I’m not going to a hotel — that’s presumptuous. So I’m like, “What do you do?”

Also, I don’t have enough time to see all my friends and loved ones, let alone some random person who I might never see again.

That’s what I keep telling my mom, because my mom is like, “Are you OK?” She probably thinks I’m going to die like this. But I honestly feel like right now is not the time. My focus is my children, work, and me, and I’m so happy. I actually don’t want to share my TV remote with someone. I love my time when I have it. I feel like when you and I — I’m including you, Charlotte — when we’re ready, we’ll know.

“Even if people get surgery or get on the Ozempic craze, I’m like, ‘Who cares!’ As long as people feel good about themselves, who am I to judge?”

I think you’re right. I also similarly feel pretty focused on work and career. I’ve been thinking a lot about how much I want money to be a motivating force in my life. What’s enough money? How do you think about those things?

So obviously we all do things for money to a degree, but it is a vicious cycle because you have to be very strong-willed not to expand your lifestyle. The more money you make, the more expenses you have. It’s hard to get off that train. I’m more motivated by time with my kids. There are so many things that I could be doing that I don’t do because my children matter to me. And being, for a lack of a better word, a single mother — I know I have Tristan, but he lives in Cleveland because he plays basketball there — I want to be present for my kids. That’s my number one. And then obviously number two is making money to continue the lifestyle that I’ve afforded them already. And I’m 40, so I have to keep it up for the next… at least 40 years! [Laughs.]

How do you think about the show? Do you see yourself still doing it in your 50s, or are the podcast and the fragrance and other projects an off-ramp in some way?

God, my 50s. That’s crazy. I love doing the show for so many reasons. If it weren’t for the show, we probably wouldn’t see each other as much as we do. Although we live in the same community, life gets away from you. So for that reason, I love it. I love documenting memories. It’s almost like I have really expensive home videos. But I don’t think that far ahead. Maybe the kids will take over. I have no idea.

It could be a fun momager situation, part two.

Yeah, who knows. It’s whatever they want to do. But I don’t think any of us have thought that far ahead.

I love that you’re going to be focusing on religion on the podcast. That’s fascinating.

I took theology in school and love all types of religions. I’m Christian and I love my faith. And I think whether you’re spiritual or religious or if you think they’re the same thing or different, whatever — I know how much it’s gotten me through some of the toughest times in my life. But I feel like people, at least from what I am privy to, don’t talk about religion as much as they used to.

I don’t think they do. It’s generational and cultural. I mean, my parents met at church when they were young.

Oh, is that our problem? We need to go to church. Charlotte, we’re going to church.

Top image credits: New York Vintage lingerie and headpiece, Van Cleef & Arpels rings, and Paumé Los Angeles necklace